Going Out and Coming Back

What's actually our job as our kids grow? And what does it bring up in us when we look at our own lives at the same ages?

In this 45-minute episode, Meredith and Rebecca pick up where cycle breaking left off-- looking at the four-year-old and the eight-year-old through the lens of the Circle of Security. What does it mean to encourage our children to go out, and being there when they come back in?

Along the way: why the age you struggled with as a child might be the age that's hardest to parent. Bruce Perry's research on the regression that usually comes before a developmental leap. The difference between extrinsic memory and implicit somatic memory. Why an eight-year-old who seems advanced still cannot, generally, clean their own room. And why play doesn't have an expiration date for them, or for us as adults.

And the quiet truth underneath all of it: if you had a childhood, you came from a family. The patterns you inherited live in you whether you have kids or not. Looking at these ages is also an invitation to look back at your own experiences.

In the next episode, we go deeper into the inner landscape of the twelve-year-old.

"We get to start over each time. There will always be a new opportunity to make a different choice." — Meredith

Resource mentioned in this episode

Circle of Security can be found here: https://www.circleofsecurityinternational.com/pages/what-is-the-circle-of-security

Be curious. Be kind. Start with yourself.

Thriving Humans is hosted by Rebecca Thompson Hitt and Meredith Alvarado. Follow and subscribe wherever you listen.

Radical Rest Retreats, both online and in person, are coming soon!

Podcast artwork: Visual Medicine paintings by Rebecca Thompson Hitt

Theme music composed and performed by Chris Peña · chrispenamusic.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

So today we're going to be talking about what are our responsibilities as our children grow? And last week we talked about cycle breaking. We talked about, you know, when we are doing something different, when we are guided by our intuition, we're going to do things that are different than maybe some of the people around us. And as our children grow, what does that look like? And as Meredith and I both have young adults, we have been on this journey. And so we wanted to share a few things that we observed that may be helpful for you on this journey of finding your own way, finding the way in connection with your child, in your family, with what's needed.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

I'm excited to get into this topic because I think that sometimes when we're moving through the different life phases of our kiddos, we feel like we are maybe just getting into a rhythm and then things shift. And the things that we were doing and that we had figured out need to be adjusted. So I think it's great to really just kind of think about how things shift and change as our kids get older and the different developmental changes and phases that we'll see. So we give ourselves permission almost to not know for the next thing, right? And to realize that, okay, now it's time to get to know what's happening here. Maybe some things have changed from what we were used to. And that's all okay. It's all normal, it's all natural. So I think just starting from that place and acknowledging that there are different things to look at with the different phases of development. Um, and just like letting ourselves be okay with maybe not knowing and figuring that along the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that made me think about how also some something that was really, really helpful for me that I read even before I became a parent, that I always kept in the back of my head as my kids were growing, is that if there was something particularly hard that happened to me at a particular developmental stage, then I may have a bumpier time parenting my child at that stage. And so it helped me because I remember 1213 was super rough for me. And so as my my oldest was approaching that that dreaded 12, 13-year-old time, I kept coming back to this may be harder for me, and that's my story. And can I shift and be with him? And so I just wanted to say that if you have a particular age or stage of parenting that is that is extra hard, I invite you to just take a look back. Was there something that happened for you at that age? What was happening for you when you were that age? And that sometimes that can help to differentiate out what's actually happening right now and present time with your child versus what is your story that your body is remembering in your implicit somatic memory. And that is memory. So we have, we have, I'm gonna just like divert a little bit here and talk about we have extrinsic memory. So this is like, hey, what did you have for breakfast this morning? What's your name? They're the things that we have cognitive awareness of, and then we have implicit memory, which is in the body. Implicit somatic memory is a memory that we may not have a thought or particular event that is tied to it, but we have a reaction in our body. So we're not remembering it, there's not words in that sense, but our body remembers the experience. And that is a different kind of memory, and it often is that kind of memory that you think, why am I having such a hard time? Why is my reaction so big right now? And often when we start asking the question, well, what happened to me at this age? it can start opening up possibilities of understanding. Oh, right. Oh, this was this age for me, and this is what happened for me. And that's not what's happening right now, but my body is remembering it.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, and that reminds me also of something that I didn't really realize until later on in my parenting journey, which is that we're also never done in terms of being adults and having processed our experiences fully. Because every now and again, even if we feel like we have processed things, thought about things, dealt with things, there will always be little reminders here and there that there might be something else we could look at. And I guess I started to feel more encouraged as I realized that because again, it was more like just knowing is half the battle, so to speak, right? Just just knowing and understanding what's happening. And again, that this is natural really gave me the permission to say, oh, okay, great. Instead of worrying about this, let me welcome this as an opportunity. Like boop, this just brought something up for me. Let me take a look at that. Because as humans, we are going to continue to grow for our entire lives. So it's not that we figured everything out now that we're adults and now we are shepherding these young people. Nope, these young people will help us continue to recognize things and reach out for support and work through whatever we need to in order to help support them as they grow.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Right. Our children give us an amazing opportunity to grow ourselves up because they touch on these things that we didn't know were there. And we can react and say, Oh, it's you, it's your, you know, you're doing this thing. But if we can stand back and say, ooh, what's happening here for me, it is an amazing opportunity for growth. Amazing. And this is true for grandparents, this is true for people who have contact with children in any, like they have the ability to bring things up for us, and it is an opportunity for us to grow and grow ourselves up. And really, in any relationship, the the same is true with our partners. If we have a partner, the same is true for our relationship with our mother. It's the same is true with our sister, our brothers, with our friends. Our friends may even touch on things. Colleagues may touch on things. They are opportunities for us to grow and to heal. Hmm. So when we were reflecting on this topic and looking at what our responsibilities are as children grow, um, it's a great opportunity to reflect on what happened for you, you know, when you were growing up, as well as if you are parenting, it's a great opportunity to look at that too. So I just wanted to say if you're parenting, absolutely look at what's happening for your child at this developmental age or stage. If you are not parenting, look at what this was like for you at these different developmental ages and stages and what needs were met, what needs weren't met. Um, and that may give you an opportunity to grow and to heal a little bit more as well. So we decided we wanted to look at four-year-olds, eight-year-olds, twelve-year-olds. This obviously is not representative of the entire lifespan, but these are little snippets of time where what I noticed in my practice pretty early on, all of a sudden I had all of these people with four-year-olds, then then I had all of these parents with eight-year-olds, and then all of these parents with 12, 13-year-olds, and then 15. And I thought, that's interesting. What is going on? That I keep having all of these people with these particular ages. And yes, of course, occasionally I would get a six-year-old or, you know, whatever, a newborn, a baby. But but there were there is something about these developmental ages and stages that touched on something for parents that kids were just pushing back in a certain way that was hard. Um, but I want to look at this because there's lots and lots of different ways that we could explore this. There is uh an organization called Circle of Security, and they have a video, and we'll put a link in the show notes for you. Um, and it's about going out on the circle, coming back in on the circle, and that this is actually what a secure attachment is. Can we encourage our children to go out in developmentally appropriate ways? Can we be there to support them when they get overwhelmed, when they um when they need support? Can they come back in? And for many of us, our parents may have been good at one of those and not the other. So even just pausing for a minute and thinking, okay, how were my parents encouraging me to go out into the world? And for some people, it's like, yeah, I was shoved out the door. You know, there was, there was not a there was an attunement with that, but it was out to go. But when I needed to come back in, you know, unless I was bleeding profusely, I did not get support. And for a lot of us who grew up in the 70s and the 80s, that is kind of the story of the general cultural vibe. Go out and and play in the street, when the streetlights come on, you need to come back home and have dinner. Um, and you're drinking out of a garden hose, and you know, I mean, I've got some great memories. Um climbing trees in random people's yards. I I really enjoy chase, I chased a rainbow one time all the way into the next neighborhood over where I'd never been before. And I finally went, I'm not gonna catch it, and I don't know where I am. So going out and then coming back in. And there are other parents and and experiences, and maybe this was your experience, of no one supported you in going out. They may have held you tight. There may have been fears about, ooh, you know, it's dangerous out there, or I don't want you to do this. And I feel like when I got into my teens, my parents very much did that. It was very much, you know, okay, when you're little, you know, out you go on your bike and have adventures. But when I hit about 12, it was, oh no, no, no, no, no, that's not safe. That's not safe. That's you can't go there. Don't go there. So going out when I got older wasn't happening. And then also coming back in still really wasn't a thing. So it was a very disorienting time. It's like, okay, well, where's safe? And what was safe and who I could come back into were my peers, which was precisely what we don't want to be the only sources of support at that particular age or stage. I did okay. I made it through. I had good friends. Um, they took good care of me, but not everybody has that experience. So, this idea of going out and what it looks like at different developmental ages and stages. So, we're going to talk about these different ages. What does it look like going out? What does it look like coming back in? And what is what is our role as a parent? Because it really is both encouraging them to go out and being there when they come back in to support them in organizing their feelings, um, when they're overwhelmed, helping them to scaffold skills so that they can then do things on their own and then go back out into the world in whatever way is developmentally appropriate. So we'll begin with four. Actually, I'm gonna back up because I want to talk about what it looks like, what this circle of security looks like when a baby goes out. Because I think it's good. We started last week talking about the the younger ages and stages. And so for a for a baby to be able to crawl away and then crawl back and have someone receive them, for a toddler to be able to run across the room and then to be able to run back and know that you're still there. So we act as a secure base. When a child feels secure and they know that if they get into trouble, if something is too big or hard or overwhelming, that they can come back, they're more willing to go out and explore in whatever way is appropriate. So it's that child who's crawling across the room and going for the outlet. We still need to be there watching over them and making sure that they're safe. We need to make sure that our toddler is not going to run into the street because they're not ready yet to keep themselves safe. They're way more impulsive at that age, they're not thinking about those things. So it is our role to support them and keep them safe. And so as our children grow, so now we've got a four-year-old. And of course, there's lots of things that happened in between. But now we have a four-year-old. What does it look like when a four-year-old goes out? And so, Meredith, you and I were talking a little bit about, you know, what did what did that look like with with your kiddo when they were four?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah. So I remember that age and time period as being really kind of the first opportunity for them to be able to participate in activities sort of on their own. And by that I mean, you know, a lot of sports or theater or, you know, fun activities would start allowing kids in around age four, right? Uh before that it was like maybe uh mommy and me class that we would do or things like that, right? I just remember there being lots of uh mom's groups talking about, oh, you know, are you gonna sign your kid up for soccer? Like, you know, that's an age where there are a whole lot of new activities and opportunities and experiences that there weren't before. And so I remember being really excited on the one hand, like, oh, okay, great, you know, this is gonna be so much fun. And then I remember it being sort of hit or miss as to whether my kiddo would actually be interested in completely being on their own in that situation, right? So was it something where the other parents were potentially dropping off kids, saying, See you later, you know, I'm gonna go do this thing for an hour or whatever. Um, because in my experience, my kudo was not always ready for that. So I really needed to tune into what was going on with them and how they were feeling. And even if they were excited about doing something, they might turn around and see me heading out and have a strong reaction to that. So I learned to be very flexible in my expectations. So maybe I'm bringing a book. Maybe I'm not planning to go run to the store at that time because that might not be happening. Conversely, um, I remember there was an experience where they encountered a Montessori program and it was a few mornings a week for a few hours. They actually loved that place at that stage. So I could drop them off and they were like, see ya. Um so excited to be in there. And I remember that we'd gone to visit, and that was part of it. We'd gone to visit ahead of time, and they saw all of these really cool things they wanted to investigate and spend time doing. And so I feel like that was a lot of it was the preparation, and they just decided they really enjoyed doing this thing. They didn't need me there, they were absolutely fine versus a sporting activity where they had not met the person. It was maybe like a volunteer coach. And when I made the move to potentially go after, you know, after bringing them into that opportunity for the first time, they were like, Nope, I need you here, sitting here the whole time where I can see you. They would still do the thing, right? It wasn't something where they needed to be right next to me. They just needed to be able to see me from somewhere on that soccer field. Um, and then they were fine. They participated. And at the end, I was there. We went home. End of story. So in that developmental stage, it was definitely a let's just wait and see. Let's try these things. Let's see what feels good for both of us. Am I comfortable by the way? Because maybe I'd never met these caregivers, the adults in charge, right? If I'm just getting the lay of the land for the first time and I've never experienced this activity with them, maybe I also want to stay. Cause maybe I'm not 100% sure they're gonna meet my kids' needs until I've had that experience, developed the trust. So, you know, it was definitely on both ends. Um, those are some of the things I remember being interesting about those experiences of having them participate in something that was really just for them and yet maybe had some other considerations there.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Mm-hmm. Right. And I and I can really hear the part of you, as we talked about in the last last episode, trusting yourself, you know, as you're because you're also evaluating to see if this feels like a good environment for your child. You're evaluating to see whether it's working for your child on this particular day or not, and and how far away they're willing to let you go. And in some situations, it was much further. So going out on the circle looked like sometimes it looked like, ooh, look at you, look at you way over there, and I'm not even in the in the space. And sometimes it was, okay, I I you can be this far away. Right. And and trusting that it's going to shift, and that that this day where they can only go this far away is not indicative of they will never be able to go this far away again, that it's where they are right now. Yeah. And and what a journey. And I think also the expectation of okay, my child is four, you know, great, I can do these things now.

unknown 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Um, and they have their own pacing. And some kids are that kid who is just like, you know, great, this is amazing, bye. And then other kids who are also perfectly healthy, developmentally normal, whatever that means, are staying much closer. And that's not predictive of a child who's not going to because I think we have a lot of stories about if your child isn't doing this by this age and it doesn't look like this, and there's something wrong with them.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Absolutely. And I actually also see that story when it comes to co-sleeping at different ages, or maybe breastfeeding, you know, things like that. Like there's this line in the sand where here's where this needs to end. Here's where they need to be doing this one thing and feeling this one way and being fine about it. And things can ebb and flow. I also remember at that age, my kiddo was still sleeping in the room with me. Maybe not always in the bed, maybe sometimes in the bed, maybe sometimes on the floor. And there's a whole lot of discussion around that as far as how long that's appropriate or what that means about them. And as we're both standing here today, you know, I can tell you that guess what? My 19-year-old, not in the bed with me. Not even in the same state, folks. So I just want to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Right. Yeah. My kids have been living on their own for quite some time. I think it's been a very, very long time since we all slept in the same room. It's usually been on a vacation. So, and then everybody's like, oh gosh, can you can we get another room? This is this is like exactly we're good now. We're good, we're good, we're good. But that need was met, and allowing them to go out and to come back and then to go out a little bit further, a little bit longer, it's the same with co sleeping or sleeping arrangements or whatever it looks like in your family. These developmental stages are not a line in the sand, like you said. It's not one day they should be, should be doing a particular thing. It is A developmental process, and it's going to have steps forward and steps backwards. And the steps backwards are not indicative of they're never going to get there. That's normal development. Actually, Dr. Bruce Perry, who I love talking about, so psychiatrist, brain researcher, uh, and he talks about how before any big developmental leap, there is usually a regression. And this is the part where parents panic because they say, Oh my gosh, last week you were able to buckle your seatbelt, and this week you can't buckle your seatbelt. What is wrong with you? And and usually there is a regression. And then after that regression, if we can meet them in it, then there is a big developmental leap forward that's not only in that one area, but it's in multiple areas. And so we have to have a little bit of trust. But I think parents of four-year-olds especially get really, I think, wigged out sometimes because sometimes they look like they're they're so advanced and they can do so many things. And then sometimes they're a puddle on the floor, starfishing on the ground. And and then parents are are saying, okay, well, then we're never gonna get there. But that's that's life with a four-year-old. Anything else about four?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I think that beyond the venturing out, maybe out from our arms or out from our home or things like that, it's also keeping in mind that even when they're with us and doing different tasks, they sometimes want to do things. I'm gonna do this myself. Let me do it, let me help, let me carry this, let me mix that, let me make my own, you know, things like that. And so it's the same thing that you just mentioned. They may be able to do something and you think, oh, this is great. I'm gonna give them this responsibility because they did that. So I bet they could do this. And it's it's not that simple. Um, because again, maybe we're having them do a little chore around the house, take something somewhere, and that works out some days, and then other days it doesn't. And then we think, oh, well, but I thought that they could do that because they did this other thing and it was almost exactly like that. I don't understand. And maybe sometimes we push a little bit because we think they just need encouragement, or we just need to remind them that they just did it the other day, and and we can get super attached to that, whereas um it's sometimes better and more gentle on both ourselves and the kiddo to back off a little bit and think, okay, maybe we need to change the expectation there. Um, maybe they're not actually ready for that. They seemed like it or they asked for it. And I just want to, you know, allow them the opportunity. So maybe it's the opposite of like, oh, I'm not gonna let them do anything. You know, maybe it's, oh, well, they seem, they seem like they can do this. It's just that flexibility. I feel like that is so helpful for us to just remember. It is not going to be the same from from day to day or even week to week, extended time period. Um, I think what you just mentioned is so helpful for us to keep in mind that there may be regressions too. And so it's just really that I think we do ourselves a favor if we don't necessarily settle into, okay, this is how things are, because it's going to change and ebb and flow. And I definitely think that with four-year-olds, they start to want to do things on their own, and then they appear to be able to do the things they're interested in doing. And so it feels like this perfect match, and it might just kind of fall apart. And then they get frustrated, like you said. Um, maybe they're doing something and then they get frustrated, and maybe then they start to act like maybe how they acted when they were 18 months or two years because they got frustrated and now they're throwing things and now they're on the floor and now they're screaming. And we're thinking, wait a minute, this I thought we were past this stage. I thought we were past the terrible twos, right? Some of those things may look like prior years, activities, right? Or reactions. And so again, it's like, okay, let's just take a step back and realize it's still really gonna vary when they're four, because that's still really young when you think about their entire, you know, the the span of the developmental stages throughout childhood. It's still really early. So I think that's helpful. That was helpful for me. And again, I do want to reiterate what you said earlier about this is helpful for everyone, even if you're not parenting, because you are going to come across young people in your lives. And it's helpful to know this. Sometimes, even especially if these are not your kids. Um, because if you're with neighbors or friends' kids or nieces, nephews, etc., you almost feel like, oh wow, I don't, these, these are not my kids. I'm not sure what to do. If you're familiar with, oh, you know what? I remember hearing about this particular stage. That expectation could still help you, especially when they're not your kids and you're not as familiar with them, to handle that in the moment. If you happen to be standing there and there's nowhere else for you to go, for you to understand what might be happening for these kiddos at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to be a layer of support for the person who is caregiving, who is the parent, who is whatever, whatever the role is. Um, and then also to have compassion about what it was like for you at this age, at this stage. So, as we've talked about all of these different things, maybe you're connecting with a story about when you were four and give that space. You know, what was happening? What was it like for you going out? What was it like for you coming back in? And you know, this is an opportunity for you also. And and even if you are parenting, it's still what is your story here too? All right, well, let's shift to eight. You know, and eight seems like okay, when you have a four-year-old and you have been raising this this person and now they're big, they're so big at four compared to when they were a baby or when they were two or when they were three, there's a big developmental shift. And I think that there's something similar at eight because we have this expectation that wow, well, you're almost 10. You know, you're getting so big. And often for an eight-year-old, they're much taller, thinner, like their bodies have grown. They're not as tall as you are yet, but they're definitely getting taller. So I think there's something with expectation. And then if you have a child who is bigger, they're taller, they're whatever, then there are often I hear this from parents a lot about yeah, my child is eight, but they look like they're 11. And so the expectation is even higher for this child because they're bigger, because they're taller. So we have expectations on the outside of what an eight-year-old should be able to do. And it is often much higher than their capacity in some ways. So an eight-year-old, just spoiler, like a four-year-old cannot clean their room by themselves. Most eight-year-olds cannot from beginning to end clean their own room. They may be able to do a task, they may be able to do one or two tasks at a time. Hey, go into your room and find all of the trash and put it in the trash can. Many eight-year-olds can do that fine. Um, and there are some eight-year-olds who can clean their room as long as it's not too messy, or they may want to organize. I've got one client when her daughter was about eight. She was talking about how one Saturday she was just home, and so she just completely reorganized her whole room. And she was just so excited that with herself that she had done this because mom had gone in there and done like a major cleanup before, and then the child was able to organize the things and put them where she wanted them. And so each child is going to have different capacities, and this goes back to your intuition and knowing your child and going out on the circle. What does that look like? So, even with cleaning the room, going out is I can do this, this task and this task, and then I'm gonna come back in because then I I don't know what else to do. And can you receive them when they come back in? It might look like if your child is in school, they may be going to school and they may be coming home and they may need support with homework or you know, organizing their things before they go back to school. So coming back in may look like that. Going out, an eight-year-old is generally going out into the world in bigger ways. So more activities. If your child is going to school, then they're gone most of the day. And so if they're homeschooling, which we'll eventually be talking a lot about, because we both did varieties of alternative education and homeschooling and may look very different. It may be activities, and what are the activities? And it may be that instead of everybody being in the same room, or like when Meredith, when you were talking about your kiddo at four, you know, sometimes you still need to be in the back of the room. At eight, most kids are able to go off. And I remember my my eight-year-old being in a homeschool co-op, and I would arrive, and then he would just he was gone, and I didn't really see him unless he was hungry and I had the food. Um, and he would come back check in. But, you know, or or if he got into a fight with somebody or, you know, was overwhelmed, then then he would come back in. But they they start moving further out for longer periods of time. So, what what do you think about with with your eight-year-old? What do you remember when when your kiddo was eight?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, I think that one thing that threw me about this age was, and I think this is true of a lot of kids, like they have so many thoughts and they can articulate them. And sometimes you can have some really great conversations with eight-year-olds. And sometimes they're so freaking smart, you really start to forget that they're just eight, right? Because they get into maybe certain topics, or like they have a favorite book or a favorite movie, and they will deep dive into learning all about that, and they know more than you do about whatever that thing is, right? It's like this is that developmental stage where they're teaching you stuff because they have different interests and they have different focuses. Maybe they play a musical instrument. You don't play that instrument, you know, and they work on it all the time and they're amazing, or they're like crocheting and, you know, like things that you can't do. So I think sometimes their, you know, heightened intellectual arenas sometimes can fool us because we're like, oh, they're so smart, they're so knowledgeable, they learn these things so quickly, you know, but they could do this, that, and the other, right? Um, because you know, they really are amazing. And especially even with activities, maybe uh I know a lot of again, a lot of kids play sports and they're like really excelling at that. And you see these things that they can focus on and do. Um, my kiddo started performing, and I'm a performing artist. It's not something I expected them to do. I introduced them to lots of things. They just happened to really like that. So they were in their first professional theater production when they were six. So by the time they were eight, they were doing more of that. They were juggling all these different skill sets and you know, rehearsals and classes and that kind of thing. So I think that sometimes we see them being able to handle all these different things. And again, we paint like a broad brush of well, if they can do all that, then they can certainly do this. Like your example of the room, it's huge, right? You're like, well, just go do this thing, go clean this up, go clean up this part of the house, pick up everything on the outside. I think we just forget that there's some, like not everything is is in the same place at the same time, right? Um, and one thing I noticed with my kiddo was their social skills, their social development was not at the same level as their intellectual development. And that caused a lot of distress for them. And until I understood it, we would sometimes have conflicts about that. So their interactions with other kids were maybe not at the same level as their ability to have an intellectual discussion about some topic that they knew a lot about. And I remember learning at some point about asynchronous development and thinking, oh, that makes so much sense. Because sometimes our kids get along better with younger or older age kids. So maybe having them be with people their own age can cause some conflict. And, you know, then we're having conversations with other parents, and I'm thinking, why is this happening? Because I thought we were past the stage of fill in the blank, right? Uh, so I think that learning about that piece in that, in that age range of, you know, sometimes them seeming so capable, um, not necessarily translating to being able to do these things uh without more support than maybe I was initially offering and having patience with that. Again, I think we get really excited when we get to these different levels and we think, great, these are gone. Now maybe some things really are gone, like diapers, right? Or like, yes, they can feed themselves. We really can say goodbye to some of those things. It's just that when it comes to some of these other areas, especially anytime it involves emotions, um, we may be looking at different patterns and we may not be able to get accustomed to one thing from one day to another. So that's something that I recall being top of mind during that age.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, I think that we we see them doing so many things, having more competence, and then we assume that it is across the board. I think another thing that as you were talking, I was thinking about is another thing that comes up with a lot of parents is there's so much structured time, especially when kids are in school and then they're also in other activities, that there isn't any time for them to just play. And an eight-year-old still needs lots and lots of playtime, unstructured playtime, because we have gotten into the habit of, oh, we have a play date. Okay, so that means that you know, parent does this and then arranges the things, and which is fine, and the child needs unstructured playtime where they can just be in a room with some toys or with markers or whatever. And parents underestimate the importance of that time because our culture doesn't identify that as important. Our culture identifies doing as important, it doesn't identify rest as important, it doesn't identify what is happening in those times where not nothing is happening, so that things can integrate, so that the brain can wander and we can access the right part of the brain, the creativity, the curiosity, the discovery. You know, that's the time when we're outside, going back to my childhood, and I remember going back to my tree climbing. I climbed trees everywhere that I found a tree that I loved that that just said, please climb me. And so I did. And I remember being in someone's yard I did not know, and they had these birch trees as in Minnesota, and so they're these white trees, and they have this really peely bark. So I climbed the tree and I was just peeling the bark, just like exploring this bark, and I was so enthralled with it, and that's unstructured playtime. That's unstructured playtime, and our children need it, and we need to guard that time. So, in in a sense, it is the going out. I trust you can go out and you can find your way. And if you get upset, disoriented, overwhelmed, in over your head, if you're bleeding, that you can come back in, going back to our circle of security. Going out can look like that. But also that unstructured playtime is just so critically important.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yes, and thank you for pointing that out because I sometimes forget, since I didn't participate in the school system, as you mentioned, that when kids are gone all day in a situation where they're being told what to do and their day is planned for them, they often only have the evenings andor weekends. And it can be a little bit challenging if they have those after-school extracurricular activities, which are also gonna be telling them what to do. And then, like you said, if the only opportunities they have for play time are then structured, you know, you and this other person are going to go to this place and do this thing type of thing. It can be really easy to all of a sudden completely have no unstructured time. So, one of the things I noticed was that oftentimes kids are told that they're too old to be doing something related to play. That toys for babies. You're not a baby, are you? You're too old to like that thing, whether it's a doll or a plastic figurine or a certain game. Um, and then there it's like certain people in society are deciding what's appropriate. And what they're deciding is way actually not great for that developmental stage. Because frankly, adults, this is a whole other topic, but I will go ahead and say it. Adults need to be playing, adults still need to be playing with games and adults, like it needs to never end. That's a whole other as it pertains to eight-year-olds, however, it's very much still developmentally appropriate for them to be playing with dolls and make-believe, and you name it, right? And so uh that's concerning to me, is that we think that we need to be pushing these kids of this age to be growing up all of a sudden so that these things aren't for them anymore. And that's absolutely not true. So, in any case, um, that's just something that I noticed uh will happen in our society from time to time is not even allowing these kids to still be kids. Eight-year-olds are very much still kids.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Absolutely, absolutely. And we need to support and guard their childhood and that that time it's it's critically important for their development. That is part of our role, part of our responsibility as they grow. I I was thinking about a family who came to see me. They just came for for one session, and they had they had an eight-year-old, and as they were talking about this child, I started questioning how old is this child? Because they were talking about the activities, this child was really into soccer and was experiencing a lot of anxiety. And as we were talking, I said, Can you remind me again how old your child is? And the mom said, eight. And the expectations that they had on this child to be a star soccer player, to be a star student, to all of these things, all of this pressure. I could see if he was 12, that maybe he could have handled the kind of pressure that he was under, but he was buckling and he actually started crying. And that was what made the mom come and do a session with me, because she's like, I know that the something's not right, but I don't know what it is. And so I just want to share that because I think there are so many parents who well-meaning have a lot of pressure on their kids, especially if a child seems to be a high achiever, then there seems to be extra pressure that's added on, and then that child who is only eight is still trying to meet the expectations of the parent at their expense and until they can't do it anymore. And until now they're anxious and now they need more support. And, you know, the the solution for this particular family was yeah, pull back from some of these activities. He's saying. That this is too much, and he needs you to hear him. Right. So I just wanted to say there are sometimes that expectation is just really out of line, and parents who are coming from a well-meaning place who think they're supporting their child to do something that they're interested in, but it's beyond the capacity of that child. Yeah. So checking back in with that intuition, like that mom did, where she said, something's not right, but I'm not sure how to fix this. I'm not sure what else to do to support support my child. So trust yourself. Bringing it home. What's the thread across four and eight? It's the same thing. They can go out, they can come back in. That's it. That's the whole job at this stage.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, and it's not about having it all figured out. It's just about being present enough in that moment to just notice what they need. And of course, some days that's going to be easier than others.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah. And if you're listening and you're thinking, hey, I didn't get that when I was four or eight, that's information. And that's definitely worth sitting with. Because it might be showing up somewhere in your life right now.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah. So next time we're going into age 12. And this is where things can get really interesting because everything that happened at ages four and eight starts showing up in new and different ways. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

So it's a good one, and we'll see you there.